Talin Wadsworth, Principal Designer at Adobe

all right today I’m excited to welcome Talon Wadsworth who is a principal designer at Adobe uh Talon has a really

incredible and impressive set of accomplishments and journey from designing tools at Adobe and creating

co-creating Adobe XD to previously working as a senior designer at volume

Inc and also shaping design at the California College of the Arts his expertise spans research iterative

design prototyping storytelling and delivering a top-notch experience for

his us users for for the users that he works with um but beyond all of the professional success um Talon is also a

frequent voice on the Society of digital agencies podcast and when he’s not working on pushing the boundaries of

design he’s a dedicated husband father and always on the lookout for new creative Ventures so I’m excited to

welcome Talon to the podcast oh thanks Scott it’s such a nice intro thank you so much and it’s a pleasure to be able

to chat with you today so well thanks for being here uh so I have a s silly question to kind of start a little bit

of an icebreaker um you know you’ve probably worked with a lot of fonts over the years uh if if you could be one if

one represented you who which one would you choose and why you know I this is so

funny such a weird sort of moment I someone I actually said this answered this question the other day and I think

the the uh I I have I have probably uh purchased or licens more tight bases in

the last like two years than I have like in the previous 10 I’m really in the type right now so I would say I’m not

going to give a specific name but anything bold uh and Brash and uh or

black letter those are the two like something something that stands out something that has a you know a lot of

contrast okay I like a I like a big bold tyght Bas amazing okay so sounds sounds like

it represents from what I’ve you know seen and worked with with you I could see that um so I’d love to know a little

bit about your kind of early story how you first got into design what you got excited about along the way and and when

maybe you decided oh this could be something I I might want to do every day yeah well you know actually this is not

a career I even knew existed you know again it’s not even that that I’m you

know like that it was really that long ago but like in a way like if you’re not exposed to it right you just don’t know

and so really growing up I just had no concept that there was a job like this

you know a job that really you know relied on storytelling and and visual communication those were things that I

was into but I had no idea that this was something I could make a career out of and actually the thing that I gravitated

first the the my first sort of uh career trajectory was to be an architect that’s

what I really wanted to be I wanted to be a draftsman and an architect and I was sort of on a path to to go to uh to

an architecture to you architecture design school um and I was starting at the community college kind of you know

because it was going to be a six-year program I was going to sign up for so I’m like well I’ll go to this community college and I’ll get kind of my you know

my ba the basics under my belt that can help help me you know not you know not be as as in debt as I would you know if

if I just jumped right into the to the the major university and the program and so I uh I started uh at the community

college and I took a class as an as an elective called designing with

Photoshop um and uh again like that that was the that was the entry point you

know here was again I’ve always been a huge music fan you know if you’re seeing a video of this conversation I’m having

with Scott behind me you’ll see rock and roll posters you’ll see you know vinyl LP on the wall back here uh you know I I

you know I fell into this class and we were designing rock and roll posters and we were designing CD and album final

album covers and I’m like you can do this this is the thing that you can get paid for well that’s it you know so instead of

again like a six-year degree I was like well I’m just G I’m going to be I’m going to do this this is this is much

this is this is cooler and so I you know started uh to I dove into the program of design at the community college I uh

started Screen Printing and making my own Zen and designing you know brand

identities and you silk screening big posters rock and roll posters and I was like all right this is it and uh that

really set the trajectory and luckily I had some some great uh professors and mentors that really helped me push

Beyond even what uh the program was set up to do and that led me from there to to California College of the Arts to

really extend my my learning and and my career and really be exposed to even a

wider world of design you know coming to the Bay Area um to attend school there and um you that the die was cast you

know here here was a a school that was going to really open my eyes and support me in the things that I wanted to do

with with design and which was everything I wanted to you know design everything and they were fully

supportive of that and I met some great people um again more professors and mentors again just fuel to the fire you

know and um ended up that was a one of my professors at CCA was uh Eric Heyman

um who became a great friend and mentor of mine and they gave me my first design job in the Bay Area at volume Inc um and

again I really again found an affinity with the crew there um with Eric and and Adam broley who was the other partner

and again we weren’t just designing one thing you know design wasn’t just locked into one application we weren’t just a

brand designer we weren’t you know just just you know a print designer you know we were designing websites and books and

you know rock and roll post rock and roll posters and we were designing you the museum space uh you know uh the

exhibit space at large museums uh California Academy of Sciences working with SF Moma and uh 826 Valencia you you

know doing amazing work uh with with Dave Edgars and his crew there and like

that’s what I wanted to be I knew that I wanted to just take design and apply it to to any any problem you know um any

medium right like there there was an opportunity there for me to to to carve

out and uh you know from volume Inc um like having no real idea like uh you

know what I would do at Adobe initially um just knowing that you of course living in the Bay Area with kids and you

know student debt I knew I need to make probably more money than I could make at a small

design studio as much as I Lov those guys and the work that we were doing right the reality was is like um you

know like it takes a lot you know to support uh life there and so my friend

invited me to come over and apply for a position at Adobe again I had no idea what I would do there really when I

started but you know this friend of mine who was a a classmate of mine as well he said he said you know looked like

there’s there’s so much opportunity to play the role that you want to really inhabit and do the work I know you’re

capable of doing and you’ll find your way and you know that proved to be true I mean that was prophetic you know he he

said like the opportunity is here you know grab it and make something of it and you know um again I really resonated

with the team there and they hired me on and here we are 13 years later you know having uh having carved that path out

you know for myself at Adobe and been able to work with some amazing people and that time and that’s what that’s

what kept me kept me going you know as a creative uh did you did you find the um the transition from I I I don’t know how

big volume Inc was for example but presumably smaller agency you know compared to big Adobe right so like uh

when you think about the skills that you learned and some of the projects you worked on was it a lot of overlap or was

it like oh shoot I got to rebuild revisit reand everything yeah I mean there definitely was I think I think the

biggest thing the biggest transition the biggest hurdle for me was really the scale right um you know a volume you

know I was like the senior staff designer um which meant most of the projects really you know went through me

at some point at the at the studio and again we would you know there’s the two partners and we we know we had a handful

of other designers at in various times um you know and and the the one thing I found there those the projects kind of

all fit a pattern you know a client would come to us with a problem and we would uh you know give them back our

opinion on what we should do and like here’s three ideas okay let’s go to the next round right like and usually within a couple months right like we’ turned

the project over we were on to the next thing and you know Adobe right like to create a digital product or service it

just relies on the expertise and collaboration of a lot of people and I

think that to me was like the the the biggest transition was going in from a a studio where again it was a tight group

of people um I pretty much had my hands on projects from start to finish and it

was really again like I really was just relying on myself and the partners and the people there um but you know here at Adobe now I’m working with product

managers I’m working with Engineers right and to to put together a complex

service or product right it just relies on so many people and sort of finding yourself in there and finding your value

in that right like these are complex applications it takes a lot of people

and us you know not months but years to do it I think that was that was the

biggest transition and that was the hardest and I think um but other than that like like what’s been really again

I think one of the things that’s really kept me saying though is like I’ve been able to again even even saying these

things are these are very different worlds I’ve still been able to find a through line in the way that I want to

practice design and creativity and you know the the the the level of quality

and the level of sort of dedication and commitment to the craft right like I’ve

been able to maintain that and to to to continue to grow you know as well so

again even even though we’re working on very different problems in their way at a very different time scale a very

different people’s scale like I still feel like I’m practicing design the in

the same way that I was doing in a volume just the outputs are different you know the application is different

you know um so that that I think has been

again the thing that that has uh been again just kept me afloat you know

as a creative is just being able to to practice design in a way that that resonates with me and continues to

challenge me you know yep so so there’s the Brash bold creative independent

talent and then there’s you know there’s sort of like also you have these customers who have demands like you

mentioned like each project has their own set of whether it’s the internal product team or the legal team who says

hey you can’t do that despite whatever you want to do um how how do you figure

out a balance or maybe there’s no balance or there’s a counterbalance to what you’d like to build and what you’d

like to see and what you’d like to bring to the world and what the customer might need is that a hard problem to solve how

do you how do you work through that oh it’s a challenging problem but it’s one that that again I think that I am always

up for and I think at at the heart part of it is the user right is again I I I

get to make creative tools right I get to make tools for other people to do great work so you know shining like a

beacon in my mind like is that creative person at the other other end of this and of course that just fascinating

problem how do I help them create great work like that’s such a fascinating

problem right how do I become how do I create the how do I create the canvas and the tools to help that person do

amazing work right um you know even before I was Adobe I really had an obsession with tools I have an obsession

with process my own in particular um how do I design you know better faster

stronger uh I really have a a lack of patience when it comes to tools you know

that just always getting in my way and always getting in the way of me you know executing that idea and you know in a fast and compelling and interesting way

and and so like I think that at the end of the day is like the thing that still drives but but then I think everything else what’s also just as fascinating to

me is the is the challenge of people is the problem of communication you know

and I think you mentioned something else that I that I kind of call back to you know and the skills that that I bring to

the table with me from my previous experience of volume and other places is

the ability to to synthesize a lot of different needs and ideas you know when

you’re you know when you’re collaborating you know with just equally as smart people and talented people you

know like I do at Adobe like part of the design problem is figuring out what they need just like a client you know just

like a just like our users right like like you know I have to I have to be I

have to I have to influence people I have to convince them you know I have to synthesize information into a message

that resonates that that galvanizes people that organizes them around a

shared Vision you know to because again like we could go do any number of things

we could go develop any number of Technologies any number of features any number of workflows in our tools but the

question is is like why which ones should we do first which ones should we do second right and so again like The

Meta design problem working at Adobe and working with all these talented people is like how do we get us all organized

towards one goal right so how do I take the information the research that we do with our users the observations that we

make um um again my own my own curiosity when it comes to tools and how they work

and how they fit into our daily lives and shape us and mold Us and how we sort of take all of that take the needs of our you know our Executives and take the

needs of you know like the smart people I work with in engineering and product management and like find a story that resonates that

brings all those things together again it’s an unobtainable like task ultimately you know it’s never going to

be perfect but I like that challenge I like the challenge of building something

complex and bringing it out into the world like what that just that that’s an

amazing thing when it happens you know like at any scale it’s like wow we ship

something that’s amazing you know yeah I I love that I I especially love the aspect of um kind of feeling the

privilege of being able to create for a creative and providing them the tools to

see what they’re going to build and what they’re going to bring because it’s like you have this double I don’t know it’s

sort of an exponential creative effect that you’re you bring to them and they bring more um that must feel just just

incredible okay so you you’ve worked with you know you’ve uh I think the first time I I might have met you would

have been at a you know Tech conference you probably go to Tech conferences and OB Adobe XD and you talk to customers

you’ve got beta programs you’ve get you get a lot of feedback uh either I assume

people message you text you call you LinkedIn message you know all that kind of stuff um I assume sometimes it can be

harsh and aggressive and hard but also like you know like Facebook always says you know feedback feedback is a gift um

are there times where the feedback you’ve received has struck you so powerfully where you’ve said I I need to

change that like I was completely wrong and maybe you were surprised yeah well I

think to me like one of the things and this is a slight slight variation of that but just in terms of feedback so

when I joined Adobe you know a lot of what I know about knew about Adobe and the way that I learned the tools was

from the community right and if I if I had a question I would I would just go

to my friends go to my colleagues right there was there was an idea that like Adobe was this this big monolith right

and it’s almost like there like how did you how do you how do how do you ask Adobe a question right like when I first

joined Adobe right like and this is again this is uh you know kind of like at the early stage of social media right

there like there felt like there wasn’t the level of access if you just happen to know someone who knew a product manager or knew someone who worked at

Adobe like you could maybe get your your question you know answered and so one of the things I really wanted to to bring

to my time at Adobe is is to to be a person who worked at Adobe who was

accessible and open and willing to listen to feedback and listen to to

people and what they needed one of my first projects at Adobe was actually um finding ways to uh partner with be hands

to bring all the great stuff that was being done with the adobe’s tools like actually like to the Adobe website like

that was actually like my first project was was actually integrating behance and community learnings and knowledge and

and the amazing work they were doing like to the product pages to be like hey like this is where the knowledge is you

know this is this is what drives our tools is all the great stuff that’s being done you know things that we

didn’t even plan on and so I really wanted to you it’s been a through line through my career at Adobe is to always

you know be a community organizer you know to be a conduit of of feedback and

and uh and knowledge um to bring that and be an ambassador of the user you

know to to the rest of adobe um and if anything what what I’ve what I love

every time and again I I’m never not surprised but not in a like like I didn’t expect it way but in like I

whenever I go out there and I see what people are doing and then they give me that window into how they’re doing it

and how they’re working with the tools what I love is not what they’re saying

explicitly because I don’t think they can always put a finger on why they do what they do but it’s it’s like it’s

like listening for the little things it’s like observation it’s just like seeing the behaviors um and one of the times I

finally we actually like put a really fine point on that is I um I I kind of created this test in a way this like

exercise and I said okay um designer um would you design me this thing and what

I what I did is I recorded their screen like while they were doing it like using the tools and we got down and as

granular and nerdy as like how many clicks did it take them to do this thing

why did they do it that way what got in their way what was what was the repetitive thing they were doing we were

like noticing like all these little details and so that was a very explicit be like oh we had to actually like like

they couldn’t describe this process if they tried so we just we we had to watch them do it and actually like like look

down to those granular details so that was those observations were fascinating and then also just like hearing them

talk about what they wanted to be able to do and just listening to them and again really observing them and then

again listening for the things they weren’t saying as well as the things that they were saying and really again trying to find and draw out of that like

some of those key you know workflow moments those key needs again things

that again they would have a hard time putting their finger on if they were you know trying to describe it directly but

just like again seeing how they behaved and how they actually got work done not

in theory how we thought they could get work done but how they were actually getting work done and those were my

favorite moments oh that’s that’s beautiful so so you stepped out of the Ivory Tower you know you you you got out

of your office and you watched somebody use the product one one of the things that one of my favorite things to do I

don’t know if it has a name but um I actually go down to where I went to school and I will pay people 10 or 15

bucks and I’ll say hey can I just like watch you install my product I just want to see how annoying painful and hard it

is and like every time there’s something where I’m like oh my goodness there’s like way too many clicks and it’s it’s

extremely frustrating I love being able to do things like that like you know actually talk to interact with and see

makes a huge difference um one can happen on any team just kind of just one thing ising is that we can become very

institutionalized in our knowledge right because we’re talking to to our teams

right and we know we know what’s going on like we know it down to again down to

the the finest detail like and and so we we almost have this theoretical knowledge right of of how the thing

should work right but once it’s out there in the world like we actually know

nothing like once that thing is actually out there in the world like we know nothing our our knowledge stops and if

anything again like that knowledge can hinder Us in producing a product is actually usable again because we’re making assumptions based on this kind of

like learned repeated knowledge that we that we’re talking about every day we’re speaking in a language that our users

really don’t understand right it’s impenetrable we know too much right so one of the things actually I don’t

consider myself an adobe user anymore because I know too much and that was a hard lesson to learn you know when I was

first at the company and being like well why are you you know product manager telling me what’s important in this tool

because like I’m the user I do this every day I use illustrator in Photoshop every day but again that was that was a

bias that was preventing me from actually seeing and understanding like users needs and what their intention was

and what they found value in right and so I I again I think connecting with users and getting feedback is always

that moment to prick that bubble that we live in you know with our internal teams right to really that and be like no

actually we only have theoretical knowledge we don’t we don’t actually know what they’re going to do with this

you once it’s out in the world so we’re we’re totally wrong guys we’ve made a huge mistake I’ve been there I’ve done and

then also you know again through through like uh you know through actually paying attention like we’ve launched things that like people have done amazing

things with things I couldn’t even I couldn’t even imagine they did with that and like again like it’s like those are

the two polls of experience right there you know and so it’s like it’s like try to skew a little more towards the to the

really good output and the really good end end point and not the not the the sort of theoretical well it should work

this way why aren’t they doing it yeah yeah absolutely so let’s talk about the

theory to uh you know in the world we we you built one of the coolest products I used for a while and it’s called Adobe

XD and when it came out I remember it was in a very competitive space there’s products like sketch and figma um I

would imagine that as you were building this you know you were thinking like how can we be incredible and unique and

differentiated and then also sort of needing to like build some of these table Stakes features um yeah how did

you figure out like what what to do how to how to be unique special differentiated like what was that whole

building process like or or I’d even be curious to hear about the whole process of building the wxd yeah well you know I

mean I think in the early days it was really just an observation that like a designer’s work had changed you

know and that we were kind of you know

either cobbling together workflows across tools to again just to be able to

effectively communicate you know to our clients to our stakeholders to our users um and like that was that’s like a

wasting a lot of time like I said like I have very low tolerance or or patience you know for tools and so you know

there’s a really Keen awareness that like tools just weren’t keeping up especially with the scale of problems

that we were being asked to solve right so you know um going from you know a simple website that maybe has a you know

dozen 20 some odd pages right to doing you to building out you know e-commerce

websites and you know complex products and services that uh right we’re now

hundreds of pages hundreds of UI elements right like and then not only

that like we need because this you know that we were coming from a static medium you know in in uh in print right and the

sort of Legacy mediums that that we grew up with like we were moving into this world of dynamic communication right

motion interaction right these were as important to storytelling inside of a

website or or a tool or product or service like in terms of the user experience right like so how are we

going to how could we communicate that you know to our to our Engineers you know to our uh to our you know our

stakeholders right to our users right like if we couldn’t we need the tools to help us effectively communicate our

ideas right um this is at the same time when I think a lot of designers were like well should I just be coding right

because again we we’re looking for any solution to the problem of being able to communicate effectively and that’s

really where you know I kind of found myself at Adobe as at this time of transition um where we just we needed a

new tool um and that’s really what brought me together um I worked on a kind of variety of what we’ll call Proto

prototypes of what eventually became XD i’ sort of spent a year kind of dabbling in that and trying to answer that

question well what what tool do we need you know my team internally to to do our work effectively um and so i’ been sort

of dabbling in that and then I um happen to connect with some some really talented people um within an

organization in Adobe you know Engineers product managers and again it was uh we

all just kind of met each other I think at the right time again timing is a lot of you know what we do especially in the

in the tech World um you know as I found there’s not a lot of new ideas just like

sometimes the timing isn’t right and sometimes right from a user standpoint from a internal company standpoint um

and we just Haven to all find each other at the same time and what was great again from doing a lot of that groundwork and a lot of that thinking

and research we kind of hit the ground running and so we had a prototype up and running again to solve this problem of

being able to communicate effectively as a as a digital designer as a designer working in a digital medium you know

using motion and interaction to communicate effectively you know complex

user experiences um and that was really the foundation of XD was a prototype we

built in uh was like the end of the summer into the fall October about the same

time best time of now yeah indeed and um we put together this this really compelling prototype

where again I was able to do and design the things that again we were seeing

that people were interested in designing out there in the world and we were to now do that now instead of again cobbling together work streams across

tools or um you know exporting importing doing these things and you know making

making this this uh these uis come alive you know I did it seamlessly within the matter of minutes you know though it

took you know 10 20 30 hours or you know again like or in seconds even I was able

to design these these uh these amazingly beautiful screens digital digital

experiences you know wire up interactivity and motion and and that was it that was the compelling thing you

know that as well as of course all the foundational work that we did in storytelling and just saying these are the users this is the opportunity um and

so that was the the really the foundation of XD and again those things all coming together at that time and

timing um you know allowed us to uh to start to build a a team to go and and

and execute on this Vision that we had for this new tool um and uh so yeah it

really just came from again an awareness of our of users and design and what their needs were and um and how tools

could play a role in those you know it’s really again um that research that awareness that exposure and then just

some really hard work and the timing just happened to line up for us I I just talked with the the president of one

password and they make a great product and um he was talking about how it’s he

he feels it’s important for him uh that his kids see him grinding and I feel

like what you’re kind of describing is like this grind like you know working through all the details the minutia the

important the the things that nobody’s going to see um like a a terrific Craftsman um so what are what are you

working on now so you you you built aob XD it was incredible what are you working on now Adobe yeah so I mean you

now again and and what’s been really cool with Adobe is also is also grow in my role and my capacity right and and

actually my my role now has has has shifted and changed right as I’ve grown

in my career I’m not working the same way again those I love talking and thinking about those XD days because in

a way that was a very different designer at the time you know again like the the role that I play actually the needs of

adobe and the needs of my team have changed and I’ve changed and that’s been really fun is to be able to sort of grow

through all these different phases and so now um you know I just uh I joined a team in the new year really and doing in

a lot of ways what we were doing in the early days of XD without um without really putting or codifying any kind of

process around it but that we were um really exploring the opportunities around new technologies um and and again

being out there on the on the Cutting Edge of these emerging workflows again you know creatives and the opportunities

for creatives you know have continued to change you know as culture and Technology changes so do the needs of of

people out in the world and who’s there to fill those needs creatives creatives are always out there in the on the front

lines of figuring out how to effectively communicate uh in new mediums uh new

devices to take advantage of new technologies and so you know my job

right now is really a hybrid of uh research uh on those emerging work streams and those emerging Technologies

you know I get to work with some amazingly you know some of our smart research engineers years internally here at Adobe and really try to uh to find

new product opportunities um and so that’s really where my job is right now

um and it help and it’s also you know growing the capabilities you know of our design organization you know um building

um strong uh working uh work streams across again Adobe is a big place

there’s a lot of amazing people doing a lot of amazing things and oftentimes one of the biggest barriers is just connecting the dots and so again in my

role as principal designer on the emerging design team is is I see myself in a lot of ways as a connector right

where I’m really trying to point point the way and show people you know how

these things come together uh to solve problems to solve these again these really Dynamic and emerging problems for

designers out there in the world um when you’re not um at work like how are you I

don’t know I feel like I feel like trying to stay up to-date or relevant learning um you know you you could

certainly watch this video of yourself and probably take away some really cool smart things but like how do you learn

like what do what do you do to get better you know you mentioned a word there um that I wanted to go back to

which is Craftsman you know um I read a book in the last year that has really

stuck with me and it’s an older book it’s it’s a couple uh it’s like maybe 15 years old now at this point um but it’s

called actually called the Craftsman and there was something in there that I was reading that finally was able to give

language to something that um that I do naturally where again I have a natural

interest in and curiosity for sort of all things design and sort of all things communication and kind of you know

technology is that um in this book uh you know as he as in this thing that resonated with me and again I’m not

going to be able to quote it verbatim but basically the gist of it was is that the Craftsman is never not working and I

don’t mean that in a productivity sense but in a in you know once a Craftsman

uh has learned their trade and continues to grow and develop in that in that craft or that trade um their brain is

always problem solving it’s it’s not it’s a slightly different flavor of I think something you mentioned earlier which is like never not grinding which

is that that the Craftsman may not be working but if you know if I’m reading

if I’m interacting with the world around me if I’m interacting with technology and new tools and new forms of

communication my my brain is always kind of filing things away is always kind of evaluating ating the world you know

through the lens of the designer right and so if I’m you know working on a problem at work um again it’s not that

I’m working on it through the evening but there’s a part of me that like is still problem solving around that and so

when I sit down the next day to to work to actually do the work it’s like it’s like my brain has done the calculations

and I’m now further than when I stopped the day before you know and so again I think it’s just a again I I again this

is not unique I think this is I just liked that that again the writer was the author was was drawing a point on it is

that you know people who are dedicated to their craft the brand you’re never not problem

solving you’re seeing the world through that lens constantly and again it’s not exhausting and it’s not about

productivity it’s about creativity and it’s about problem solving and that’s

you know again no matter what I’m doing I feel there’s a part of my brain that’s always just going to fing filing those things away turning over that problem um

and I find joy in it and I think if again if I’m not finding joy in it again I I think that’s that’s when I’ll stop doing it so I I mean I love I love I

love how you position that um when when I was growing up and I’d asked my dad a question we’d be driving around sometimes there would be like a three

minute pause where I’m like okay I know his brain is thinking about something about work and uh you know it’s it’s

hard to turn that off but I always admired that he was like working and and

trying to think through and process and find you know solutions to problems that he was probably working on that day um

one one final question for you um yeah so obviously there’s a lot going on in the design world I’m I would love to

know like what what gets you excited where maybe it hasn’t come to fruition yet it’s being worked on or you’re

you’re thinking like what if like what are you excited about over the next few years or decade in in design space

design World well you know again like there’s the world is about again we we humans we

excel at solving problems creatively right and I recently was researching

this artist her name is Vera molar and I may be saying that pronouncing that

poorly um she is an artist again a very creative person and she in the 60s was

going to the sorban in Paris and she just happened to uh have a friend who was uh in charge of

the room siiz computer at the sbon in the 60s and she ended up getting putting

I don’t remember the exactly details but she ended up convincing this person to allow her to to use that computer to

generate her artwork to do generative work to to use the tool to think about

it critically and think about the types of problems she could solve with the tool the computer in a way that could

help her Express an idea about the world to an Express an idea about again in a

way like um the capabilities you know of machines right and I think all the great

artists you know throughout history have always done that you know have have used tools as as a as a

transformational you know step in their process and I to me that’s the thing that excites me the most about today and

again I I think I’ve tried to look Beyond I think the um I again not this is not to downplay

it but you know generative AI in the last you know year or so as we’ve looked at it you know visually um it’s a it’s

it’s a fine result you know I can you know put in a clever uh sort of scene

and I can get that result back and then it’s like oh great H awesome on to the next thing and what I’m really

interested to see and the thing that I’m really interested in exploring and I’ve been doing this with some projects internally is like okay well what what

now what more can we do why why do we want to do this how can how can we use this Tool uh this amazingly powerful

tool that we’re just barely scratching the surface on like how will it help us see the world in a new way and how will

artists use that technology to tell us something not about the technology

itself but about us and about the world around us and how can it help us translate or

transform our work into something that we’ve never seen before um that excites

me and again I’ve been working on some proposals internally to to on some projects that have yet to see the light

of day uh hopefully they will in the new year um but to really again become a

platform for artists to to show us something to help us see the world in new ways um and communicate something

again you know we are visual creatures we are not again language we’re sort of applying after the fact

we are visual creatures we see the world and language and images right these are

these are forms that we use to communicate ideas that we have about the

world and I’m really again I’m interested to see how these new technologies can help us express what we see in the world you

know to each other so beautiful I I love the idea of of seeing the the future of

what can be transformed despite maybe feeling like what we currently is not quite there yet um I showed my

sister-in-law today I was like hey did you know you could do this with J GPT and she was like completely blown away

but for me it was like something I do every day yeah all right well Talon thank you for joining me today and it

has been such a pleasure to talk with you Scott always a pleasure and I look forward to many more conversations with

you all right man right see thanks Scott